越洋访谈（四）：美国前高官顾问谈民主运动实质

越洋访谈（四）：美国前高官顾问谈民主运动实质

丹奇（2012年6月5日）

 继上篇 越洋访谈（三）

前言，本访谈开启于有关中国64运动，而延伸到民主运动实质。令人颇受启发。特分段分享于此。

 me: do you think there are anti china powers behind the student movement?  many people even governemnt think CIA and some anti China power is behind student and misled student too, do you agree?

我： 你认为学生运动后面反华组织在支持吗？ 许多人包括中国政府认为美国中央情报局和一些反华势力在后面支持学生，你同意这个说法吗？

David: not really, no, i don't think so， in 1989 china was growing, but still a true 3rd world country

大卫： 不应该吧，不，我不这么认为。1989年中国虽然在成长，但是仍然是第三世界国家。

me: do you know anything about NED? National Endowment for Democracy,   funded by Congress , paying people to promote Democray in China? many reported those student leaders fled under help of those organizations，what do you think?

我: 你知道NED吗？国家民主基金，是国会拨款的。给钱中国人在中国推进民主吗？许多报道说那些学生领袖是在这些组织帮助下逃亡美国的。

David: yes, heard of that. that wouldn't be unusual, but, you have to find willing "actors" but many people may truly want democracy.

大卫：听说过。这很正常啊。但，你还得找到愿意表演的演员才是啊。也许很多人真的想要民主呢。

 me: why they do that?  that's why all leaders not wounded, no died, all came to USA , but left those anarmed, unhelped in danger and loss of life

我：他们为啥要这么做呢？难道这就是为什么所有的领袖都没受伤，没死，全都来了美国，但是留下那些手无寸铁的，无助的学生在危险中，甚至失去生命的原因？

 David: people, for over 2000 years love the idea of democracy, from Greece, to Rome, to Europe, to the USA,   choose your leaders, who represent you: if they don't do good job get rid of them,   all big powers stir the soup bowl of their opponents

大卫： 人民，两千多年来，都喜欢民主的思想。从希腊，到罗马，到欧洲，到美国，选择你的领袖，代表你的，如果做得不好，就赶下台。所有的超级大国都去他们的对手那儿搅局。

me: : But don’t you think they should not interfere other country? by stirring the pot? just like your family set a fund for the kids in the street to take down their parents because they don't send boys to scouts,  should  you do that?

我： 你不认为他们不应该这样搅局, 他们是干涉别国事务吗？就比如说你家为街上的孩子成立一个基金，你付钱给他们去推翻自己的家长，因为家长不准许他们加入童子军。你认为你可以这么做吗？

 David: it's not quite the same,,,but i see your point.   the other parents don't have nuclear weapons,  lol

大卫：不是一回事，但是，我明白你要说什么。但是其他家长手里没有核武器啊。（大笑）

me: so do you think  it's just a play of the organization actually stirred up the pot too hard and turned into a tragedy  ?

我:  你认为是那些组织实际上搅局过头了造成了悲剧？

 David: yes, keep the other side "off balance",   we do it, china do it, russia do it, the euro powers do it,  the middle east arabs do it to each other, it's been done for thousands of years,,,this is not new

大卫： 是滴。让另一方失去平衡。我们这么干，中国这么干，俄罗斯这么干，欧洲这么干，中东互相这么干。大伙这么干都上千年了。这并不新鲜。

 me: It seems China not like to stir other's pot and poke into neighbours yard,    just self defensive。

我：中国好像不太喜欢去别人家里搅局，而只是偶尔自卫吧。

 David: you not pay enough attention.

大卫： 你没有太注意。

 me: to what?

我：注意什么？

David: need to look at syria, palestine, africa, cuba, venezuala,,,  north korea,  China  very involved, as part of policy

大卫： 应该看看叙利亚，巴勒斯坦，非洲，古巴，委内瑞拉，北韩，涉入很深呢，这也是政策的一部分。

me: what do you mean very involved, what policy?

我: 你指的涉入是什么呢，什么政策？

 David: but still, people die trying to get here,  rich people try to move their money here,,,,send their kids to school here,   it's their policy - look at their "client" states, and look at ours,,,,china "clients" are enemy of our "clients" ，we sell them weapons,,china sell their clients weapons。

大卫： 但是，人们拼死都要来美国，富人想方设法把钱转移到美国来。送他们的孩子来这里读书。这就是他们的政策---看看他们的客户国家。再看看我们的。中国的客户国是我们客户国的敌人。我们卖武器给他们，中国也卖武器给她的客户们。

David: and then the clients "fight",,and then each side can assess how their weapons work...we did the same with USSR for 50 years. we could always see how our new technology worked against their new technology by starting little wars between the client states,   so we could test planes, tanks, new guns, new tech,  they are called "proxy wars"

大卫：然后，客户之间进行战斗。然后，每一方都能评估他们的武器是如何工作的。我们和苏联这么斗了50年。我们经常在客户国之间发动一场小小的战争，来检查我们的新科技与他们的新科技之间如何对抗的，这样，我们才能测试飞机，坦克，新型枪支，新技术，他们称之为“代理战争”

 me: oh my god . is that the purpose of the war that kills people  just for testing the technology?

我: 我的天，发动杀人的战争, 目的只是为了技术测试？

David: no, the purpose is the let others get killed,,,but we can see how our technology is good, how can improve,,but not put our people at risk,,,  let clients states get killed and kill each other

大卫：不，目的是让其他人被杀。我们可以了解我们的技术多么好，如何改进，而不是把我们的人民置于危险之中。而是让客户国之间互相杀戮。

 me: so all is for protecting its own people by put other country in danger？

我:  所以，为了保护你自己的国民而置其他国家于危险中？

 David: LOL LOL,,,USA do it, Russia do it, china do it,  where you think palestinians get guns ? where you think iran get missle tech ?and planes ？and where you think north korea get nuke tech ?

大卫： 大笑， 美国这么做，俄罗斯这么做，中国这么做。你想象看巴勒斯坦从哪里买枪支？伊朗从哪里获得导弹技术？飞机技术？ 北韩从哪里得到的核技术的？

 me: from china？everybody want to show who is the leader？

我: 从中国？每个人都想当领袖？

  David: Yes, from China. And  no, not true.   everybody want to be leader in their group,  then you have true power,   and if your group can defeat other group,,,then you rule the world,

大卫： 是的，从中国。不，不是真的。每个人都想成为他们团体的领袖。这样，你才会有真正的权力。如果你的团体打败了另一个团体，你就统治世界了。

 me: why you want the power for if not bring peace to the world？

我： 如果你不能给世界带来和平，要权力干吗？

 David: to preserve your own power at home,,,to be able to feed your people, to get energy resources,  not enough resources for the entire population

大卫：用权力来保护你在家里的权力，能够喂饱你的人民，获得能源，这么多人口没有足够的能源。

 me: so ruling the world is the goal?

我: 这么说，统治世界是目标？

David: ruling the world only serves the goal to keep you in power at home by keeping the citizens happy by feeding them, and keeping them , employeed, and warm in the winter

大卫：通过喂饱你的公民，给他们工作，让他们冬天保暖，这样才能让你的公民过上幸福生活。你才能保有在家里的权力，这才是你统治世界的目标，

 me:   Thank you David, It’s getting very late there, I will let you go and sleep. Thank you very much! will intervew you next time,  about many stuff, is that ok?

我： 谢谢大卫，你那边很晚了。先去睡觉吧。下次再采访你。可以吗？

David： No problem. You are always welcome!

大卫： 没问题，随时欢迎!

后记： 本访谈内容纯属个人意见，不代表任何官方或民间意见。若有不同看法，请用英语提问或发表你的看法，我将转给David 先生，并请他为各位有疑惑的朋友解答。谢谢）