关于慈善的有些讨论比叫板本身还精彩。记之以勿忘。

作者:jadepython  于 2012-8-27 22:41 发表于 最热闹的华人社交网络--贝壳村

作者分类:每天情绪|通用分类:热点杂谈|已有11评论

龙:

    Well, we have different point of view on this one, there are people who has big ego but in reality, with shallow pockets, and it is not necessarily say those people are cheap toward kindness. Overall, money is easiest way to donate when you have plenty.

    I just don't think back someone into the corner to prove they are shorter is a fair game.

    I know you are such a kind person, just please don't grow too much teeth around your kindness heart.



蛇:

    You are a genuine kind person...I guess just hate to see those wannabes put on disguise to fake dragondragon :)

    It is just...I am kinda pessimistic about the power of kindness alone. Sometimes you have to rely on tangible means...be it a harsh critic or a small amount of money.



龙:

    I agree with you on sometimes,  tangible means or harsh critic would help to speed up the progression, and sometime it can also be double edged sword.

    Kindness and assimilation are two other fundamental things we also need, it may seems having very slow influence, but for sure last longer, talking about why our culture still exist among the cradle of civilizations.

    sigh~~~again,  think I talk too much today, and there are no right or wrong answers, good thing is at least we can talk about it





云:


    Talking without action can go either way, either right or wrong, depending on the parties who are debating.  In this regard, I don't think anyone would be successful in converting and recruiting the other camp.  Just such plain darn reality!   

    However, when it comes to things as concrete as an action, ethics are usually involved.  Often when we talk about ethics, we are justifying our actions by saying they are right/ wrong relative to the other's.  

    That's why DaShe got his point.  Quite good job in laying out his points.  I do agree with 99% of them.  The 1% that I don't agree with is "知行合一“ must have to be concretely reflected through an immediate "tangible" action, such as donating $2222. There are other ways to achieve that reunion, and the process of such reunion is not static and exclusive.  In other words, you don't have to provide direct service or goods; you can do other things indirectly beneficial to that group of people.  

    Another reason I am bit shun away from the idea of donation is although donating a chunk money as big as $2222 is truly impressive, it actually makes me ponder how much effect it would result in its target population - the children depicted in all of those gloomy bleak pictures.  This is something I am really concerned about.  

    This reason is self explanatory given the considerations to the system, the corruption.... So I usually don't donate unless I know who is handling the money.

    I am not cold; my heart always goes out to them when I see pictures like these.  But I am even more sad when I have to see resources like the donations from all the heavenly good hearts go down the drain!  

    Because of that, I guess I am even more miserably pessimistic than DaShe, as he still donations, although in such flamboyant way.....

    Well, too much being said... I am getting too philosophical...but I'd rather see the world in this way when I see things like those children's lives because I feel powerless in making changes in their lives.  There are just way many hurdles between.  

    You might argue that at least I can try to donate.  Although the corruption exists, there is always some money going to the other end.  Well, if you say so, you might have got a point unless I ask to you to show me the evidence.  But would it make the whole process even more convoluted?

    so keep it simple.  talking with action is better than talking without action.  When there is tentatively no action, then say nothing.




蛇:


    某云,

    First of all, I am only speaking for myself for the amount. The $2222 was merely a bashing blow to those big-mouth-Rolians, not a tool or trick to solicit more dollars from perspective true-hearted donors.

    In terms of 知行合一,The reason I called for chipping in the dollars first and asking people to follow suit, aside from playing  the matching game mentioned above, is because I firmly believe it is THE most fateful first step one could take to actually make this charity event reality.

    You could talk and talk, debate and debate, evaluate and evaluate, convince and convince...at the end of the day, you will find people start losing passion, getting tangled up with fine details and drifting apart... and you would need a charismatic leader to convince or even coerce the group back on track.

    That rarely happens, because those leaders are born and they don't come in dozens. You would be lucky to work with one in person in your whole life.

    So it is actually really simple if you just start act spontaneously by donating a few bucks, these few bucks will buy you a group of people with this magical “stickiness”: They will then trying to find a channel to funnel these money to a consensual initiative -- just like the “life finds a way” in Jurassic Park  

    To orchestrate a group people like that is a much easier job. You basically just need an accountant and a voting machine.

    This is why I am saying talking is cheap and acting is gold, not because the latter is more more noble than the former, it is because the latter leads to results and keeps the project on track.

    But you wouldn't know all these - unless you chip in the first dollar.

    Mark my word: The Rolia thing 樱桃果果 is organizing, will not have any significant outcome unless they start chipping in right now -- not because I wish them to fail, because they already failed --- right at the starting line.


云:



    Don't get me wrong.  I actually admire people like you who can jump in and start doing things right away.  And I also believe physically doing thing is eventually THE WAY to make things really happen. :-)

    You seem to be much more like a doer than me. I am not saying I am not a doer.  Actually I am, too.  But, I tend to be more on the observer side first when it comes to the resource issue.  hehe, I am quite stingy in a sense.  But when we talk about resources, we must have to be stingy.  Don't you think so? The attitude toward utilizing resources is it is not like we should not spend any resources; it is like how we should maximize the use of resources.  

    Money is one of the resources.  It is repugnant to see resource is being suck in some greedy hands when it could actually be utilized in a much more meaningful way.  That's why I want to know the process of using the money before I donate.  

    Therefore, from this perspective, I kind of understand those Rolians who are compassionate to initiate such action.  They might be just like me in some ways.  They want to do something good but also worry about the system over there.  So, I wouldn't consider them being like the people who are only fond of talking, talking...

    Although I understand there are ones who are only good talking.  So I understand why you challenged them to follow you.  Yes, this can be a good way to illustrate "知行合一", but it is not the only way.  

    So I'd suggest give them some time and believe they will follow you somehow in some other ways in some days.  That's what I meant "知行合一" does not have to be solely reflected through donation.  Perhaps, one saying made years ago can reunite with one deed many years later, as long as one keep his/her action consistent with his/her ideas.

    Look, in this sense, I am less pessimistic than you!  I still believe the good sides of people, although I myself choose to talk only with action!



龙:

    我同意你的观点,知行要合一才真正有意义;有知无行不过是空谈,有行无知为莽撞。大蛇本身就是知行合一很好的例子,这应该也是他事业小有所成的原因。但所谓的知行合一究竟是律己还是律他,我和大蛇的意见是不同的。我没有大蛇的见识和学识渊博,更没有他的胆识和魄力,他的做法很可能比我的有效,但我依然相信人性本善,知源于书本,行效仿于榜样。

    对于慈善,如果说每一分钱对于贫困的孩子都是帮助。那么问题如果变成:贫困孩子可以的得到10块钱,但捐款人要付出100块的成本把这10块钱送到孩子手里。我们是不是依然愿意捐款呢。很多的时候,我的想象会束缚我自己,不过是因为我自认看透了社会黑暗的本质,但如果社会并不是我想象的那么黑暗呢......社会上究竟是好人多,还是坏人多呢? 我承认,我仍然很幼稚。

    的确,钱是做善事最简单的方法,当我更在乎我的时间时,钱是很容易给我买一个内心的平安的。在我做不到用余生的精力去行善时,花二千大洋,一个星期的薪水便成了更容易的选择,难道不是么。我是个凡人,做自己能力以内的,所以,我接受自己局限。至于将来,引用你的话:“ talking with action is better than talking without action. When there is tentatively no action, then say nothing.”


云:


    是啊,知行合一不一定必须同时发生。有些时候,一个inspiration 需要很长时间才能actualized.

    大蛇也对,你总得迈出第一步吧。对于他来说,他的第一步可能很轻松,但是不见得谁都跟他一样吧?再说,有些钱有的,也不能强求谁都跟他一样不care这钱怎么用吧?

    donation可以就像扔个钱进捐款箱那么简单,也可以很复杂,比如去查找到底donation都干了些什么?是肥了某些人的肚肠呢?还是真正去了孩子们的身上?我个人比较care后者。

    这不像地震捐款。那是一次性的。像那些孩子们,是需要长时间的帮助,不光是金钱上的,更多的,我想要从社会环境着手,那才是根本的。

    但这后者,似乎有点遥不可及。


蛇:



    呵呵,再讲下去,恐怕真成了人生哲学的角度和差异了。

    其实我们说的可能不一定是一件事的同一个角度。我这个人比较右,比较看重“术”的作用,龙大概是讲“仁”的力量,云大概是讲的是“势”。

    术比较有效,但心术不正就瞬间完菜。
    仁是永远的,但在人性弱点前会前进得很艰苦。
    势,是要时间和耐心积累调整的。

    我想可能大家都有道理吧。至于有多少比例的钱被贪了这种想法,俺感性地讲过一个老生常谈的小故事:

    一个孩子在海边,把退潮滞留在沙滩上的小银鱼一条条扔回到海里。。旁边的路人不禁问他:傻孩子,这千百万条小鱼,你一条一条扔,有什么用呢?

    孩子没有吭声,低头看着手里的小鱼,轻声说:

    “对这一条有用”。

    。。。。

    我觉得,虽然要考虑损耗和规避污浊的系统,但是还是尽量希望,对某一个我们未必谋面的不幸中有幸的孩子,有用吧。

    再说,哥说过,为善,更多的是修心么,呵呵,咋都不吃亏。



龙:

    唉~~~先做能做的吧。

    大蛇逼捐的做法也是不敢苟同啊。



云:


    其实,这个问题在很多情况下都有表现,比如healthcare system.  有些生病的人很“可怜” (我其实很不喜欢这个词,因为我觉得没有人需要别人去可怜),但在有些情况下,healthcare resources就不能为他们所用。

    那怎么样才能在有个相对的平等机会呢?这个问题太难回答了,往往最后就成了讨论资源是否最大化的问题。

    我欣赏把小鱼一条条扔回去的effort,也明白长期的付出有时不如就拿出一个星期工资来得那么容易。

    可是,我们去做一件事,是真的为了自己觉得好么?自己觉得好,也许是促使我们去做一件事的动机。当我们开始做了的时候,我们还是希望make a difference。那就需要在大的格局里的改变。

    具体点吧,要不要被说成太虚飘了。比如,现在捐¥2000,然后你好好管理的¥2000的用途。不管的话,也许那个孩子就到手¥5,就够买个书包。假如好好盯着的话,那个孩子可能会上一年学,比原来更有谋生能力。。。。

    所以,西方文化里有个理念我深信不疑,independence. 教孩子独立的能力,相信他自己最终会有那个emancipatory power去拯救他自己。

    又philosophical了, darn it!!



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发表评论 评论 (11 个评论)

0 回复 甜,不甜 2012-8-27 22:47
好家伙,双管齐下。 。沙发上,慢慢读了
0 回复 fanlaifuqu 2012-8-27 22:52
philosophy 无处不在!
0 回复 i0u 2012-8-27 23:35
everybody has different point of view, and acts differently, all that make this world become an interesting place, isn't it
0 回复 jadepython 2012-8-27 23:47
Yes indeed. Diversity lead to superiority. Rome, Qin-Han, Tang, British Empire and USA, no more proofs needed.

I solute any kind of actions -- if there are indeed actions.

To me, a charity activity is probably the simplest thing to run. Because first of all everyone has the same vision (helping poor kids in remote areas in China), the mission is also quite simple (give them means of betterment), what is left is just execution like any corporation life-cycle:

fund raising (like IPO)  -->draft charter --> form board --> appoint management -> set short/long term goal -> start project  -> monitor and adjustments -> dissolution (or re-org) when mission accomplished.

I don't under stand why people have to get into all these future steps before the first step of pooling the money, that to me, simply defy common senses.

But hey, diversity eh...maybe some innovations on this life cycle too...let's see then.
0 回复 JuneRipple 2012-8-28 02:47
jadepython: Yes indeed. Diversity lead to superiority. Rome, Qin-Han, Tang, British Empire and USA, no more proofs needed.

I solute any kind of actions -- if the ...
well-articulated....  yep, the process itself should be flowing like this...  and more, you did raise a good question:  Why do people have to get into all the future things before even making the first step?

One possible answer from my end is once trust is bruised it is bruised.  I don't know how much effort is exactly required to heal, but I do know it takes more than just double, or triple, or more.

China does have that trust issue unfortunately given by its system.

Nonetheless, I do believe as you do:  the end vision should be the same when it comes to humanity perspective, and hope the process could have been less bureaucratic and convoluted for the benefits of the people who are in grave need of help.  

0 回复 hotmoon 2012-8-28 08:42
老 天爷,好复杂,搞不懂。。。

DREAMER OR DOER?
0 回复 jadepython 2012-8-28 11:10
hotmoon: 老 天爷,好复杂,搞不懂。。。

DREAMER OR DOER?
都是龙龙上班没法打字。。开英文闹的。
0 回复 hotmoon 2012-8-28 12:52
想的太多了....慈善的乐趣都不见了....觉的慈善也是满足自己,成全自已呀....我不能和被帮的对象走的太近,别人对我的期盼和感激,有时对我是一份负担....STRESSFUL....

帮了就走...最好也别联系了....
0 回复 超越2010 2012-8-29 01:54
   这篇很深刻,龙,蛇,云的语气和手笔感觉像出自一人之口,但却完整统一。正如文中讲到的:

蛇重“术”的作用,龙讲“仁”的力量,云讲是“势”,而

    术比较有效,但心术不正就瞬间完菜。
    仁是永远的,但在人性弱点前会前进得很艰苦。
    势,是要时间和耐心积累调整的。

如果龙,蛇,云如这篇文章的默契和智慧统一起来,那必定是奇观,必竟精神思想上的默契,会节省不少物质以外的心理成本。
0 回复 jadepython 2012-8-29 02:03
超越2010:    这篇很深刻,龙,蛇,云的语气和手笔感觉像出自一人之口,但却完整统一。正如文中讲到的:

蛇重“术”的作用,龙讲“仁”的力量,云讲是“势”,而

    ...
呵呵。。你还在肉联么?

竟然,竟然真就这么流局了么?
0 回复 超越2010 2012-8-31 20:42
jadepython: 呵呵。。你还在肉联么?

竟然,竟然真就这么流局了么?
才发现你说的肉联貌似一个网站,对吗,这个不是很清楚,没那么多时间折腾这些,所以拣好东西看。

facelist doodle 涂鸦板

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